Very neat set up.

Always worked good for me. My old one was made out of regular untreated pine, rotted at the corners and finally fell apart--it was too big anyway. This time I used treated pine which I hope will last more than 5 years. What I do is fill all the voids around the pots with soft, fairly dry soil up to a level of one inch or so from the top of the pots when tamped lightly. Some settling will occur. This soil will allow perculation up and into the pots on one hand and will allow perculation down and out of the pots on the other keeping moisture content fairly ambient to the surrounding garden soil. Pots are tipped almost flat with bottoms facing each other for heavy rain watershed opposite and away the pot tops. Well rooted new seedlings will hold everything intact nicely--but don't use the method for newly planted bulbs in fresh soil. After the soft dirt is added, about 2 inches remain for filling with large, coarse, dried wood chips with a slight crown. The hardware clothe is then tacked down and a few more chips added. Mulch as needed when required. Company came and interupted me from getting pictures of dirt filling step.

There is hardware clothe on the bottom as well. In the Spring after the pots are removed, this unit can be raised (Spring soil falls thru the hardware clothe with a little teasing) and used for something else or left in place. The boards from the old one worked nicely in between the rows in my lily garden for me to walk on.

Now I understand how that box works. A very viable option. But you're not afraid of heavy snows or rains in very early spring, filling the box with nowhere to drain, because the ground below is still frozen and doesn't allow a downward seepage? Perhaps you don't ever have that problem in your climate. Here, it is a yearly concern.

More considerations, regarding the smaller bulbs along the sides of the margerine tubs:

1) I've always wondered if the growth of algae or other microorganisms that depend on light affect root growth. Would they significantly compete for available nutrients? Could exudates be toxic? Could they prevent or hinder the normal root functions in other ways?

2) Also wonder out loud here, if light itself had some kind of detrimental effect on root growth, wouldn't one expect roots to grow away from the light, either turning and growing toward the inside of the pot or roots growing near the sides growing little while roots from the same plant growing toward the inside of the pot growing more vigorously?

Hi Rick: Being this close to the lake which never freezes helps; hardly ever freezes below sod in lawns if at all, for example. Glads winter over without mulch and if left in the ground more than a year are a real pain to get rid of because of all those tiny offsets that break loose and short of using a flower sifter are next to impossible to seperate out. I routinely dig my last carrots for Christmas dinner. Beyond that time, they grow little white hair roots. And potatoes, if not discovered while digging, come up the next year. So, frost is usually not a problem when it comes to drainage here. I stay on top of the situation, of course, and if I see the temperature inside the cage go below 28' for very long and more exceptionally cold weather is expected, I pile on more 'green chips' Most tipically, lack of frost or a frozen soil layer a couple inches thick is my real problem. If it only freezes an inch of so and it snows a few inches and stays, then what little frozen layer I do have rethaws; I'm in real trouble because the ground will never refreeze and voles are free to do as they please. So, I get real nervous around Christmas time here with the weather and mulching. In the mature lily garden I only use scattered pine boughs and a sprinkling of oak leafs and only if I get a good enough frozen depth that will hold.

I like all of your ideas and thoughts in 1) and 2). Maybe more suspect aspects, too! I think light to the outside root growth is one because I've seen that before with baggies. I didn't see any tell tale signs of algae, but it could very well have existed there given the light transmission--altho the copper fungicides may have held it in check. But if they were, they would goble phosphate needed for root development. All this sounds logical, Rick. I know when I tipped the clump upside down, I could see the roots in the bottom center were much larger.

Next Spring, I'll give these a good 'going over' for what we can learn. And take pictures!

Wow, I had no idea that (large?) lakes didn't freeze there! Quite the revelation. My sister was up near Ely in northern Minnesota deer hunting this past week, 7 miles from the Canadian border. Typically at this time of year, there is enough ice formed to walk across the mile long and 1/3 mile wide lake that or cabin is on. This year, she said that in the mornings there is an ice crust about a couple feet into the lake from the shore, but by afternoon it's nearly gone. I'm not liking this climate change thing one bit.

Roosterlorn said: I stay on top of the situation, of course, and if I see the temperature inside the cage go below 28' for very long and more exceptionally cold weather is expected, I pile on more 'green chips'

Many years ago, I used to mulch my gardens and cover my potted materials for the winter around Thanksgiving. Now, it takes so long for the ground to freeze thoroughly that I don't do it until mid December! Last year, I didn't do it all! I wonder what my neighbors think, watching me toss around frozen leaf mulch in the garden...

I'm about 400 ft. from Lake Michigan, Rick. Inland lakes freeze over usually about six inches thick--but the last few years it has become noticably thinner and last winter there was a couple they couldn't have ice fishing contests on because it was only an inch and a half thick. But the climate difference of being right on the lake shore here and a mile or two inland is very dramatic.

Getting back to moisture control in the cage--in very early spring, if I foresee something like a 2 inch rainfall event coming, I cover it with a waterproof tarp. That helps keep the pots from flooding.

In a related item, I've heard that it's OK to cover tipped pots with a sheet of plastic in the Fall and leave it there all winter, but I've always been skeptical of that idea and never gambled on that advice. Any Thoughts?

Edit: All this frozen lake talk reminded me of the movie, 'Grumpy Old Men'---filmed not far from you. I loved it!!!

Oh lake Michigan! Of course, then! Even the north shore of Lake Superior is a zone warmer than inland. They've recorded that since they began keeping records.

Regarding winter covering, that is what I usually do. These are the boxes I have fabricated with 2x4's and hardware cloth. They have a top that opens, and will be tacked down with screws or short roofing nails to keep varmints out. The frame is sparse to keep the whole thing light and manageable, and the cross bars double as supports for a shelf.




I grow a lot of alpine plants that require a very gravelly soil. It is the nature of alpines to grow their feeder roots well below the surface. Pots could not be tipped, or the medium would fall out. In addition, I usually have a layer of loose chicken grit at the surface, too.

So now I wait for the ground to freeze permanently and at least several inches below the surface. (In the meantime, pots sit in the garage where air temperature moderates.) Then I can pack the pots in the boxes and cover loosely with a tarp, mainly to keep rain or snow from penetrating the pots. Before the first really cold spell (say, below zero) I will put them to bed for good with some blankets and the waterproof tarp over all.




I don't futz nearly as much as I use to in these 2005 pics. I still use the old sleeping bag, but the rest of the blanketing (that goes down the sides, too) is just the cheapest blankets I can find, about the thickness of a towel, but then doubled. I don't bother with mulch bags around the sides anymore, either. Bulbs and roots are amazingly hardy, I've found, as long as they are kept fairly dry.

I said this is what I usually do, because last winter it was soooo warm. I waited and waited, just to pack the boxes, but the ground didn't get cold enough, IMO, until mid January. By then, I thought, what's the point? So they stayed in the garage all winter. So I did water them twice during that time, but I did lose a few things due to dessication.

I like this set up for pots you can't tip. Hard to tell from the pictures, but do you have hardware clothe on the bottom too? See, around here, living in this virtual wildlife sanctuary I would have to do that. Otherwise, I'd be building a Grand Hotel for voles--complete with a lily bulb buffet. You can thank your lucky stars you don't have voles. Twenty years ago, I didn't but then one year--BAM--they hit me like a storm. That day comes as a completely disgusting surprize. If you don't have it screened off, I would strongly recommend you should, Rick, because you just never know when that day will come. And, golly--I don't want anyone to go thru that sick disgusting feeling I went thru the first time they got me.

I calibrated a couple thermometers for 32'F this morning--maybe post a couple pictures.

I was looking for something else in our archives here, and came across this from PollyK, regarding gnats and cinnamon:

it's my understanding the cinnamon kills the fungus, which is what the gnats are eating.

Yes of course, all six sides of each box are wrapped in hardware cloth. Voles are all the rage here, I'd say they are even "in vogue". Everybody says they have the terrible varmints, but when I quiz them, they usually just have mice.

I am understable to the average person's confussion. Most people don't care and if it even resembles a mouse--it's a mouse or as you say now it's in vogue--so now it's a vole. Living where I do, I have many different types of mice. Yet I don't have anymore of a mouse problem than what is typical anywhere. I think the habits of mice are very predictable and easier to manage ( I like to say they are better behaved). I have the usual mouse rush in Oct/Nov as they search for warmer winter shelter, but once they take up their winter residence, they usually settle in and stay put--working only a small radius of twenty feet or so from their nest. And they prefer to travel on the surface whenever possible rather than tunnel. And I think they develop a much slower lifestyle in conjunction with the cold as well. My experience with voles behavioral patterns is quite different. They remain very active all winter long and are very mobile and elusive. I've found that they like to exist in large families, sometimes eight to twelve in a group and are quite apt to abandon one nesting site and move to another if a more suitable one is found. With their seeming endless network maize of tunnels in turf above ground under the snow I've found several satalite nesting sites. They also breed actively thru the winter--I've uncovered nests of everything from the tiniest newborn, to adolescence and adults combined. Other observation I've found is that the young won't venture where the adults can't go, such as a hole or entry that's too small. This relates to our use of hardware clothe because half inch is penatrable by a smaller adolescent. So even tho they may go thru, they go right back out to join the group. Moreover, these young ones, when presented with their favorite poison grain, will not eat it then--they turn around and go back out to join the group. Additionally, I found the babies must be strongly 'homed in' to the scent of their parents because I've caught adults in a baited glue trap and a day or two later caught tiny, tiny babies in a new trap set along the same tunnel line--presumably in a desperate search for their mother. Niether mice nor voles like co-mingle and seldom share the same area.

As far as I know, I have two trypes of voles here: the common grey water vole and the common brown meadow vole (commonly called a meadow mouse or field mouse). The common grey vole is by far the most distructive here. And because their dirty work is done out of sight under the snow, they're difficult. Often their presense and distruction is not known until the snow melts presenting the evidence and catching a few in the meantime makes for an easy association and identificaion. But still, to the average person who doesn't have a reason to care--a mouse is a mouse or vole whatever they want to call it. That is-- until their garden gets raided by voles and they lose some valuable plants--then they'll learn which is which ASAP.

Progress report on late arrival sprouts that started popping up in late Sept.and Oct. If you remember, these were planted in March. The first surge sprouted and grew normally and were subsequently removed and transplanted in Oct--upon the surprizing arrival of this second surge. There were five seed lots which I brought in and continued to grow under lights. Most are getting their second leaf. I don't know when they'll stop poppin--two more bobby pinned this week. They love their temporary set up and of course, I'm overly joyed because I really wanted these seeds to all grow--kind of special ones to me! What a wonderful dilemma to have!







Rick, the stick in picture# 4 marks the spot where I replanted the seed that I had removed the skin on. Of course, so many have come up around there now I can't tell if that naked seed is one of these or not.

Beware the imposters.

Many don't understand that seed from Lilium martagon var. album doesn't usually yield Lilium martagon var. album seedlings. Usually, this is because the grower has only one white martagon plant and assumes it will breed true.

NOT true.

Even if there is another different Lilium martagon var. album plant among the other martagons, wouldn't one get true L. martagon var. album seeds?

NOT true, again.

To get true L. martagon var. album seed, one must make sure that pollination occurs ONLY from an L. martagon var. album plant. The flower must be protected from contamination of pollen from colored martagon flowers.

Fortunately, there is an easy way to tell if you have true album seed. Lilium martagon var. album seed is very light tan.

Left - (regular) Lilium martagon seed
Right - Lilium martagon var. album seed



Edit: I have since learned that, yes, all L. martagon album seed are very light colored, but not all very light colored martagon seed are necessarily L. martagon album. These "anomalies" do always possess white or light colored flowers, however.

That's good to know. After waiting years to see L. martagon var. album seed from a seed exchange (don't remember which) flower... I was rewarded this year with one mauve flower that survived the heat-wind-wave. I like regular martagon, but seems the time has come to start again; attempting to grow the true white variety.

Update on late "second surge' of seedlings that decided to bobby pin mid Sept thru late Nov. Just to recap, all of the normal, seasonally mature seedlings were more or less surgically removed in mid Oct. and transplanted when I made the decision to move the few late arrivals inside under lights. As time went on, more and more popped up--so here they all are today: There are five seed lots in the three pots. Some seedlings are a full two months older than the youngest ones.





My plan is to grow these out another month JAN.), then move them to a more Fall like enironment of 58-60'F with Fall light and low moisture to begin inducing dormancy for another month (Feb), then chill from early March to mid April, then bring them back to 60'F for a couple weeks or early May. Then, finally, back outside to join the rest of the seedlings planted last Spring.

Think that will work? I have grown seedlings into early Dec in the past OK, but never this late--up to the end of Janurary?. I have run scales until early March and they did OK with very little turn around chill. I would appreciate any comments and suggestions anyone has.

A webcam shot of Lake Michigan taken today from a camera inside a marina clubhouse about 2 miles down shore. Cold 9'F this morning--time to mulch.

That sounds like a plan, and thanks for the update.

My only suggestion is actually a query: I am not sure why you would need to give them "Fall" light, presumably to help induce dormancy? I can only imagine that lower light intensity (given that "high" light inside (even under lights) is still quite low compared to natural summer light outside) would force the the leaves to starve for energy, rather than store more carbohydrates. I believe it will be the temperature and drier conditions that will induce the desired dormancy rather than light intensity. However, if you are mimicking light quality and/or diurnal light duration, perhaps that might have an effect, although I know of no studies or anecdotal evidence with lilies.

I, too, have found that a shorter than recommended cold treatment is all that is required for many lilies.

Trumpets and Aurelians, anyway. I haven't gained enough experience with Trumpets X Orientals, etc. yet on how much turn around time they require.

Good thoughts above: cooler and drier most likely the biggest influences.

Another concept to keep in mind for all seeds (not just lilies) that require a cold treatment:
It is not the temperature that switches a seed into germinating. It is the chemical reactions
that occur in the cold that does it.
It is very important that you differentiate the two ideas, if you want to understand how things work.

Because chemical reactions stop when frozen, the duration of time at or below that frozen temperature* has little to no effect on cumulative cold treatment times. Most of these needed changes seem to occur best around 40F, but I imagine they work at different rates between the frozen temperature and 55F, and depending on the peculiar chemical reaction(s) needed.

(Lorn, if you are melding this concept with our discussion of fungal growth vs. lily growth in above freezing vs. below freezing temps, then you are indeed a good pupil.)

This is why seed requiring a cold treatment that is native to, say, Tennessee, typically needs more cold treatment time than the same species of seed native to, say, Manitoba. This statement seems illogical, but remembering the concept above, it will become clear.

Naturally, Manitoba seed has evolved in Manitoba winters, which typically has ground temps in the above freezing yet cold in the late fall/early winter and late winter/early spring. That is, before and after the deep freeze. Naturally, the Tennessee seed has evolved in Tennessee winters, which typically include many many more days in the above freezing but still cold temperature regime, because that effective temperature range is continuous (or fairly continuous) throughout the entire winter.

Few people, even knowledgeable people, realize this. Assuming I explained it adequately, you'll be able to wow them, too.


*That frozen temperature may not be actual 32F. If there are sufficient antifreeze modes to allow fluid states, it may be a little lower, but of course, reactions at low temperatures are, comparatively speaking, extremely slow.

I think you explained it very well. That's exactly the way I envision it. A good visual understanding of this to keep in mind all the time--especially with the many, many lilium seeds lots coming from every which way that we plant today. Their background may contain many unknowns, and, how to deal with an unknown once you recognize or realize a presence, then this background vision of how and why things happen the way they do becomes valuable.

In the examples above, when the first surge (small population) came up and most did not gernimate, I did an exploritory and found the remaining seeds (large population) still viable, I had to make a decision: Do I grow the few out and risk losing the rest or should I put these in a cooler at 35-40'F for 3 or 4 weeks and sacrifice the few and take a chance on the other still viable seeds? Since these seed lots were pretty important to me and there was a sense of obligation and providing them with additional cooling time became more and more impractical seasonwise, I decided to run it the way I did.

But the visions that I have and as you explained it above were in my mind every day and every time I looked at these pots--not just from a seed aspect but from a fungal and mold growth/temperature aspect as well. And in the end, things turned out really well, albeit a little challenging ( we like that).

It will be interesting now, to see what differences in charactur these separate surge seedlings might show for clues of. their background.

Roosterlorn said:It will be interesting now, to see what differences in charactur these separate surge seedlings might show for clues of. their background.

Interesting indeed! However and as usual, nature is seldom black and white, and there will (and should) be seed germination spilling over from one genetic group (for example, the early germinating group) into another seed germination regime (same example, a later germinating group). The natural world rarely puts all its eggs in one basket. We, as humans, consider this to be a survival mechanism for the species. Such a logical bias holds true most of the time, although there are example that puzzle our brains (like bamboo).

Another good example of not putting all the eggs in one basket would be the odd martagon seed that germinates immediate hypogeal, rather than the normal delayed hypogeal.

Roosterlorn said:Do I grow the few out and risk losing the rest .......

I think you made the best decision, although you wouldn't have lost all the rest. Certainly a good portion, merely because the ideal germination conditions would not present themselves again in such a long duration with perfect conditions. But ungerminated seeds, even if plump, survive freezing temps just fine. Even if not required, more often than not cold temps will push seeds through the germination process at a faster rate when conditions are right, so a shorter duration of optimal conditions is needed anyway.