I agree pretty much so. Here's another interesting observation: That is, these plump seeds survived shaded, outside potted soil temperatures ranging from 60' to 84'F (4 days over 80'F) throughout the summer growing season (90 days or more). However, all conditions exept temperature were optimal. The only other possible negative entry would have been three routine bottom feedings of very dulute fortified 7-10-10 meant for the first surge seedlings already growing, but that apparently was not detrimental. Still good surrounding information, however.

So here it is January 8 and my seedlings from last spring are still growing! I've stopped watering since mid December and placed them where the temperature goes down to around 40 at night and 50 to 55 during the day. Some have wilted but are still green and most of the rest are still green and putting up a few new leaves. What do I do? Should I put them in a colder area as they are and hope they go dormant or start watering again, put them back under lights and keep them growing? Suggestions ??????? I'd really like to use my lights for other plants right now but I also don't want to risk killing my seedlings.

Firstly, there will always be losses with seedlings. Don't beat yourself up when this happens. But certainly, we can always attempt to minimize casualties.

40F nights and 50-55F days isn't cold enough. That would be normal spring temps, and I'm not too surprised that it's not inducing dormancy. In fact those temps are pretty ideal for building healthy "bones" in most plants. Warm enough for very significant photosynthesis (energy production) and storing sugars, and cool enough to curtail respiration (the chemical reaction that uses up sugars.). So, at least on the plus side, I'll bet your babies have been storing up a lot of food in their bulbs.

you could grow them on under lights, thereby getting the most growth and larger plants in the end. But I see no reason why you shouldn't be placing them where temps get down to freezing, and after a week or two: where temps stay at or below freezing (but above mid 20s). You'll be surprised how resilient even seedlings can be. All lilies, even seedlings, have a natural antifreeze in bulbs and roots that prevent them from actual freezing, even if the soil ball is frozen rock hard.

Thanks Rick. I'll move them to my sister's unheated garage as I don't have any place colder than 40.

In a garage situation (or even the refrigerator), once the soil is sufficiently dry, put the container(s) in a plastic bag. At least here, our winter relative humidity is always low, say 10-30%. A garage is always warmer than outside, and of course the same amount of water vapor in the outside air brought to a warmer temperature makes the relative humidity even lower. Uncovered pots will continue lose water until tinder dry. We want to have the plants drier, but we don't want to dehydrate them.

Remember, though, that frozen soil always looks dry, whether it is or not. If you are familiar with lifting containers to see how much moisture they hold, this will be a good interpretive gauge. Frozen water weighs the same as water in the liquid state.

Hey, some excitement going on.
I checked the lily scales I got a couple months ago and I could see really tiny bulbils appearing. What's funny, these don't come from the soil but rather from the exposed parts of the scales.
What should I do?
Cover the scales completely with more soil?
Some of the scales are more than half above surface... I am worried they won't produce any bulbils.




Here's a really tiny one on the "roof"

Calin--You should read the Thread titled: 'Adventures In Scaling' below for suggested materials and methods most people use for propagation. This thread ( I think) is for seeding only. See my post there.

Perhaps we can get one of our illustrious moderators to engage their superpowers, and move Calin's query to that thread.

Sori (the romanian spelling) hehehe...
I hope Merlin is still out there somewhere and can give me a hand/wand/whatever he is used to using :)
I DID search for a scale thing but somehow I skipped it.

Update on 'late surge seedlings'. I moved these into a cold (cooler room) at 52'F to start them on their journey toward dormancy today. My plan is to lower the temperature about 5'F each week for the next three weeks. No watering is planned at this time. However, I will still be providing light a reduced level with only one 48 inch Hydrofarm AgriGro 6500K, 5000 lumin light at a height of 18 or 20 inches above at decreasing exposure of 14hours, 10 hours, 8 hours per day per week. The lowering of temperature along with drier conditions should greatly lower respiration while the continued suppy of light should allow the existing greenery to continue finishing the chemical processes that are already 'in process' and, coupled with lower respiration, should thereby pack the bublet with plenty of stored carbohydrates, starches and sugars ( important not only for a healthy start this Spring but these will also make the bulblet more freeze proof during the upcoming chill cycle). After this cycle they will be refridgerated (next month).

The cold room is an unfinished, unheated basement block room which has a south facing window that's adjustable (open/close). So, gradual temperature reduction is fairly easy to accomplish. There will be some sunlight thru the window from noon on as well. Edit Note added: Rick, let me know what you think of this plan--or if you think I should modify it some way. This is sort of an open end study--subject to modification at any time.

Here are some final shots taken just before I moved them. I don't know if I mentioned this before but for a period of time--most of December thru about the first half of January, I was using three of these 48 inch AgriGro's (15000 lumins) at a height of about 12 inches for 16 hours a day. Probably a wastefull excess, tho I think harmless because the plant will only use what it needs.





Here's one that didn't pull down; instead was forcing up. I did a shallow exploratory, but It didn't tell me much. I marked it so when they go dormant I'll remove that one and see what's going on.

Wow, so many green babies.

I am super excited. Got a batch of seeds I am desperately wishing to successfully g&g (germinate&grow).

I know I should probably find an answer in these pages, but I'd rather ask.
Can the "vermiculite sowing" work?
The thread "Sowing in vermiculite" in Seeds forum

What I have is:
vermiculite
perlite
sand (sifted)
potting mix (purchased)

So... what do I do?

I am tempted to try this method (purely vermiculite, sealed up containers) but maybe Liliums are not the best candidates for this.

And another thing, it's mid-winter here. Outside it could be freezing but some days it's not. On balcony? (cold but a few degrees above outside temps) or fridge?
Do lily seeds need to FREEZE?

OK... Here's the proud pic

Regarding your readying for dormancy regime, Lorn, you're luck to have such a versatile room. The only thing different I would do is the light duration. If there are changes triggered by the uninterrupted dark duration in lilies, then most likely those reactions won't be triggered until nights are at least 12 hours long. I would begin there, rather than 10 hours dark (14 hours daylight). And remember, it is uninterrupted darkness that counts. None of that checking on them at night with light on for ten minutes. That breaks up one long night into two short nights.

That's a good point; a very important one too! Did you catch that one folks--about breaking a light/dark cycle somewhere in the middle? Plants don't like that at all--like a bad hicup in the middle of a process! If you ever change the light/dark period, do it at the end of a cycle, depending on which way you're going with it. In my case since I'm working with colder temperatures, I want to add darkness so I'll add darkness to the end of the next dark cycle. If I want to add light, as in the Spring with growing seedling sprouts with warming temperatures I would do it on the backside of the daylight cycle. But in my case of lowering temperatures, it will take longer to process and store energy. And energy stored slowly, carbohydrates, starches and sugars, are always finer and more pure than those stored at a more rapid rate.

How many of you are a little familiar with the Calvin-Benson cycle? We're kind of playing with it a little bit here in our discussion.

Rick, when I built this house I was really heavy into Dahlias; much more diverse than now so I needed a cold storage room. It also doubles as a tornado shelter--someplace we can get into in a hurry should we ever need to--which has happened many times in the last 40 years.

Roosterlorn said:.... It also doubles as a tornado shelter--someplace we can get into in a hurry should we ever need to--which has happened many times in the last 40 years.

Dad built a cellar off the basement when he built our family's house, too. i remember times bringing the transistor radio down with us while we cuddled under blankets, waiting for the tornado to pass.

--
Boy, if ANYBODY remembers the Calvin-Benson cycle, they need to get a prize! Actually, I had to look it up myself, because, as I now discover, I learned it as the Calvin cycle. At any rate, no, that is not what I was talking about. The Calvin cycle is light independent, and can occur in both light and darkness. That it seems to occur more in darkness, I think is true, and I never gave a thought to its significance in relation to length of night. Perhaps you can enlighten me, Lorn.

But even talking about the Calvin cycle, when one wants to change the diurnal light cycle, I don't understand the significant relevance of adding to the end of a light or dark cycle rather than the beginning. (Of course, in effect you are subtracting from the beginning of the opposite period, but I still don't understand the theory.) I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on this.

Regarding my previous discussion:
Many plants use what is commonly called day length to initiate certain physical or chemical changes (flowering in some plants, for instance). But in actuality, it is night length, not day length, that matters. There are always exceptions in nature, but for 99.9% of the time, when the diurnal light cycle is relevant, plants measure the length of uninterrupted darkness, not the light time. I don't remember the name of the reaction, but it begins at nightfall and continues to build only in the absence of light, for as long as there is no light (morning).

Once light is introduced, the reaction "clock" is reset to zero. This is how a plant measures night length. Thus, a 12 hour night can be broken up into (approximately) two 6 hour nights, by temporarily turning on an artificial light midway. To a plant, then, this 12 hour night is recorded as two short nights, rather than one long night. This concept is important, as for many species the night length triggers important changes in the plant's life cycle that is vital to its survival.

Rick, when I was challenged with how to handle these late seedlings with a program that would keep them on track, I thought I would review the Calvin Cycle to see if I get anything out of it that might pertain i.e. develop an idea, plan etc. That's when I discovered the Benson part also. I doubt if anyone would find any practical application in our discussion here; probably bore everybody to death. And I'm no expert on it by any measure. So what I'd like to do is Tree Mail you some of my thoughts and reasoning and then if after we discuss it a little, if we find something we think is appropiate or usefull; then we'll post something. Sound good? Bedtime anyway--another long day today.

CONNIE/RICK,
Can you HELP me?
I got the seeds in the pic above and for the past 3 days I've been reading online on how to germinate them PROPERLY (= successfully) and I end up being even more confused!

OK, I will make it easy.
I got these:
1. vermiculite
2. perlite
3. sand (sifted)
4. potting mix (purchased)
Pots, containers, with/without homes, plastic bags, fridge/freezer (the seeds are frozen now in the freezer), warm-ish living room, coolish kitchen, balcony (a bit cold but not freezing unless I let the windows open).

From the info I got:
L. formosanum var pricei = IE
L. mackliniae = IE
L. regale = IE
L. pyrenaicum = DE

L. oxypetalum var insigne = IH
L. hansonii = DH
L. monadelphum = DH
L. jankae = maybe DH ???
L. pardalinum var shastense = H??? (I or D)

And I am also waiting for some
L. nepalense = IE

The only questions I have:
WHEN to sow these? (the E in late Feb and the H in late summer - should I keep the seeds frozen for half a year???)
What mix? Any mix from the above media would work?
Container vs plastic bags?
WHERE?

Any details from your experience with any of these would be much appreciated :)
CALIN

The epigeal germinating seeds can you sow now. Most of my lilies where sown january 14. and are germinating now. The seeds with hypogeal germination, like martagon, I sow them November. Just keep the seeds frozen untill that time.

L. jankae is apparently an enigma, as I haven't found a definitive answer for its germination mode, either. It has always been thought to be most closely related to L. carnicolicum (also I have listed as "DH maybe"). But a more recent DNA study has placed it closer to L. rhodopaeum, which is definitely DH.
http://www.the-genus-lilium.co...

L. formosanum var. pricei is IE, but in most people's experiences, including mine, the seed still needs a cold-moist treatment to germinate. The freezer is a great place to store lily seed, but it will not suffice for this cold and moist treatment. You must plant the seeds (or put them in a moist medium) and place them in a 1-5C temperature. I am guessing for a minimum of 4 weeks.

i have tried L. mackliniae seed three times with seed exchange seed from plant societies and they have never emerged. I have talked with Peter Korn about this and he said he has observed L. mackliniiae seed germinating while still in the seed pod. He suspects my seeds were already dead. Last late winter (almost a year ago), I received some fresh seed from someone in New Zealand (when it is summer there). I planted them soon after, and they are the only ones that have grown.
So I would be sure to plant the L. mackliniae seed now.

An excerpt from Darm Crook's published findings:

L. pyrenaicum - I have found that a few seeds will germinate within 60 days after being frozen for a couple of weeks the majority will not. After a three month incubation period at temperatures around 15C. I give them a three month period at +2C. Then plant them out germinated or not. The ones that had germinated will sprout their cotyledon shortly after being planted out. The rest that are viable will sprout their cotyledon the following spring. Thus they germinate through the summer, it seems like this lily's seeds may require two cold periods before they will properly germinate and sprout their cotyledon.

The following specie seeds are immediate hypogeal cool germination. If held at temperatures of 9 to 11C. they will sprout their first true leaf about 60 to 80 days after the seed has germinated and the bulblet is well formed.. If held at warmer or colder temperatures the seeds may never germinate but if they do the true leaf may never sprout. The planting medium should be just moist, if it's to wet the seeds will refuse to germinate. They should not be potted up until the true leaf is sprouted and a root system has at least started to develop. These species seeds which I have grown will germinate as follows.

L. bolanderi - 30 to 60 days
L. columbianum - 30 to 60 days. Some of it`s seeds will germinate as delayed hypogeal.
L. humboldtii - 30 to 60 days.
L. kelloggii - 35 to 90 days.
L. pardalinum - 30 to 75 days.
L. parryi - 45 to 80 days.
L. parvum - 30 to 60 days. Some of it`s seeds will germinate as delayed hypogeal.
L. pitkinense - 30 to 60 days.
L. rubescens - 40 to 80 days.
L. washingtonianum 40 to 75 days.
L. wigginsii - 30 to 70 days.

Darm Crook
Hay River, Northwest Territories,
Canada
Zone 1 Canadian scale.


You'll want to sow the DH seed so they can germinate in the warm 60-70F (15-20C) and have 3 months to develop in warm before the cold treatment. if you plant in late summer, you will need to bring them inside to complete the 3 months. Many of us do do this. The other option is to plant in spring and let the seed develop underground during the summer, and then receive the natural cold treatment in winter outside.


All lily seeds are naturally dispersed by wind. Consequently, growers take the hint from nature and surface plant or plant very shallowly. While this is not so exacting with hybrids, the species are more particular. I surface sow and cover with 5-10mm of #2 grit. You could substitute 5mm of vermiculite or 10mm of perlite. Soecies are more particular about good drainage, too.

First I want to be sure - when you sift the sand, you are keeping the larger granules and throwing out the tiny granules.

From what you have to use, I think 2 parts potting mix, 1 part sand, 1 part perlite. Nothing is set in stone, so you don't have to be exact. Always err on making the mix too light rather than too heavy. Remember, with species you are likely to keep them in the same pot for at least 2 years, and you don't want the soil to compact too much.

Thanks Rick,
I think I got my answers but this makes me ask more questions :)
Only problem is we have really long and hot summers here.
I'd say June is already hot, and so are July, August, September.
15-20 C is probably May... but then a long hot summer comes.
Would beginning of May be OK for these DH ?
I will monitor these pots as they will be on the balcony which is all closed with windows and on the north side, so direct sun only for a couple hours in the morning (in summer).
And in winter, the temp will probably be a few degrees above outside but still very cold.

The 15-20C is the optimal temperature. Temperature extremes in general have greater disparity in North America than in Europe and Asia, so it's difficult to know what really hot is for you. where I am in zone 4, Minnesota, summer temperatures reach 100F (38C) about every third year, with 1.5-2 weeks straight with highs in the 90sF (32-37C) every day, and scattered days in the 90sF at other times. I have started martagon seeds in pots where they germinated in (probably) May, and next spring they sent up their first leaf right on schedule. The heat I have didn't hurt them. What will probably happen is the tiny seed bulblet will grow in the spring and early part of the summer, rest in the hot heat, and resume when it cools toward fall. Opposite of what you might think, when bulbs are resting in the hot time (and this includes mature bulbs that die back in summer), they like to be kept much drier.

You could start them inside (remember, DH seeds don't need light), say, April 1, and move them outside when temps warm in May and leave them outside for the rest of the summer (in the shade, of course).