WOW--I read those posts Rick. Thanks for your persistance on the perched water table subject. And here I've such such a diligent student of the 'old school' procedure all my life for something probably more harmful than helpful--and doing such a nice neat job of it at the same time as well. Well, anyway, the old way must have worked for me ok because I never had any real problems--but who's to say it coudn't have been better. I compose my mix to have good drainage anyway and have often thought about not using it. I'll run without it next year--at least on some!

Thanks for having an open mind, Lorn. More than once I've gotten into trouble before, introducing ideas that are contrary to to a poster's thoughts. It seems some people are so closed minded that all they want is to hear themselves talk.

Roosterlorn said: the old way must have worked for me ok because I never had any real problems--but who's to say it coudn't have been better.

I think the advantage for you will be that in the same size pot, the zone for good root growth will be increased. Maybe your plants will grow bigger!

Rick--two heads are better than one; and besides, working together is always more enjoyable to me.

This year I have got seed pods on Alexandra, the OT lily. Since our summer are cold and rainy I grow all the lilies that I'm going to pollinate in my greenhouse. When the pods started to split most of the seeds where more or less white. But they turn brown after I have dryed them a few days. Do any of you have experience about this kind of seeds, will they germinate when I sow them? It's a great lily and I hope to see it's seedlings too.

This happened to me too this year with all the pods on one of my OTs. It's one of the American series but I can't remember which one at the moment. I used tetra trumpet pollen and I got a few of those white seeds that did dry but I can't see one embryo in any of the seeds.

All liliy seed is white until they dry. If you harvest pods at "first crack", you will find the seeds next to the crack will be browning (and drying), but the seeds below will still be white and moist. When the pod is very spongy and hollow inside, the seeds are ripe enough to pick. If I do this, however, I do not open the pod until it splits on its own, which usually is not log after anyway. There may be some after-ripening going on in some species, although I don't think it has been documented. But it is well known in the closely related genus, Fritillaria.

I picked two Aurelian OP pods last evening to avoid an approaching shower (they were in as Rick says 'at first crack') and didn't want the water in them. The seeds were lite tan at the crack line, but I could see 'down in there' they were white. I have pics, but no need to add; Rick describes it perfectly. Sometimes, if birds get aggressive, I'll pick them this way; or, if I'm going away for a week end, I may want to pick them while they're maybe even still a little green on one side, as long as they are spongy and show telltale signs of cracking. A couple days of drying before opening and they're ok--they all darken up. I have had no problems that I'm aware of.

At 1st crack,then head first into a paper bag.. 'named of course'

grapus--Look what I found today: White or very light tan seeds with embryos. Fully dry--picked yesterday. They are all quite small with rough edges but appear to be good seed otherwise with very little chaffe. I could candle these without a light. The pod parent is the gold Trumpet in picture 3 that I let open pollenate. At eight and a half to nine and a half inches in the free state, it is the largest trumpet I grow. The whole pod full was like those in the picture

.

In january, the first seeds that I did sow was seeds that I was uncertain would germinate since I had not found embryo in them. But from most of the crosses I got germination. A year ago I read an article written by Art Evans. He said that it was important to sow all bad seeds. This year I have some of them, many from exiting crosses. We don't know if they will germinate before they have been sown. And since the embryo are easy to see, Roosterlorn, I guess that they will germinate.

I also had white dry seed from Lilium concolor var. coridion. I had peeled an opening flower and protected the stigma from pollination, but never got to pollinating it. To my surprise, it produced lots of seeds anyway, but I could not find an embryo in any of them. The seeds were almost clear, and I wondered if there was anything in them at all. The following spring, I put them between moist paper towels and they did indeed have good endosperm: they plumped up nicely. But, none ever sprouted, and embryos never became visible as they often do after water absorption.

Your photographs are great, Lorn. It's not unheard of to be able to see seed embryos without a "light box" of some sort, in fact I was looking at some seed from John Lykkegaard just yesterday, but to be able to photograph that is quite a feat, I think.

It will be very interesting to see what come out of those seeds. (A bated breath emoticon seems more suitable, but a bit ghoulish. However, it would be appropriate in this All Hallow's Eve season of the macabre.)

Thanks for the compliment on the seed pictures, Rick. Did you notice the flower on the left has seven anthers and a stigma with four lobes? Problem is, this plant lacks decent bud count. I'm going to run these pics by Judith Freeman anyway just to see what her interest might be. I put up twenty two pods (seed) today, fourteen more to go. Two or three grains of dried rice was added and in the fridge they went for a couple days of conditioning prior to freezing.

Roosterlorn said: Did you notice the flower on the left has seven anthers and a stigma with four lobes?

Actually, I noticed a lot of weirdness going on there, extra petal(s?) too (and on the other). If all those stems (or at least the two nearest) are coming from the same original bulb, you've got nonuniform pedicel bract number and placement. I would guess that it will settle into normalcy when the environment is more normal.

Gosh, if I only had one-fourth the room you seem to..... With all that seed to grow out, you are truly a hybridizer.

I self diagnose myself as a seed hoarder and a vicious,viscious culler. I can be both meticulous (sometimes) and sloppy (sometimes) with no time for candling seeds if the majority look good. I have the run of 80 acres so space is never a problem but I only have two hands and only one of me. There is a real opportunity to get involved with Oriental crossing here for the right person should one show up. But for now, I'm happy working with Divsion VI.

Did some potting up of baggie raised seedlings today. I removed a inch or so of soil for pics of the baby bulbs on this bag. There are ten bulbs in there with six showing and four on the other side undisturbed. The two in front are the size of marbles. !00% germination on this one--from Connie, of course! I planted this clump directly in the ground AS IS, the way you see it. My experience has proven to me time and again this is the best way to deal with such a tightly woven mass of roots and baby bulbs. What happens is that next year these bulbs will grow apart and expand outward as they search for new fertile ground around their parameter.

Hint: If you decide to go the baggie method and use those polyethylene shoe boxes to stand the bags in (we all use them, I think), I've found that filling in the sides and voids with sterile sand or perlite so the roots are always in the dark--and cool, always gives me the best root development. A couple of my bags had roots growing back up the sides and almost out the top. But baggies aren't the only method I use--I use more pots than anything--but whatever it is you use, make sure your roots are KEPT in the DARK!



I also had three seed batches that had mostly delayed epigeal germination rather than general immediate. Seeds were planted about March 23rd. A definite second group started coming up about three-four weeks ago. Thus the delimma: what to do about the fully matured early ones now going dormant while I put the newbies under the lights to grow them out--and hopefully squeeze a quick chill in somewhere before next May or so. So, I spent a good while this afternoon very carefully separating the old from the new, retrieving eighteen mature marble size bulbs in all without disturbing the babies a real lot. I'll know more in a couple days. Pics are of two of the three batches after the fact; company came and I hid the camera while they watched closely, seriously interested!




In other news, most all of this years seedlings are near dormant. Note the little spots? Nothing new there. It could be a little copper toxicity from my last fungicide treatment or else a little botrytis caused by the late fall dew or too high humidity in the green house. Copper fungicides are not very effective at temps below 45-50'F In any case, no problem at this stage of the game. They'll soon go into their winter resting place.




Also started a few scales a couple weeks ago. Some very expensive stuff in the unmarked bag.



And brought the last two seed stems inside yesterday to finish ripening/drying in here. Its beginning to freeze-thaw every couple nights now--so, I'm playing it safe--I've done this before.

Man alive ,Lorn, you are on fire there you are making my miniscule attempt look like a tinpot show ...My Lankons and my Pon pon dahlias just arrived so I know what I'll be doing for the rest of the Afternoon-Anthony

Wish I were there to help!

I think you are all here 'in thought' , when this 'mad professor' goes to work

Lorn, have you ever grown seed from a fasciated stem before?
With so many pods, it would be interesting to note the chaff versus viable seed ratio, too.

A lot of weird coloring, blotching, patterns seem to show up when leaves are senescing in the fall. The theory I have is that most of this is present in summer also, but camouflaged by the dominant color of the chloroplasts (green).

Is the hardware cloth frame a cover that you put over the pots for winter?
I would be afraid that rodents would find there way in...

If your new batches of seedlings came up as a result of cool weather, I'd be tempted to test some, and let them overwinter as normal. Tiny seedlings can be amazingly resilient sometimes.

As many of us may have noticed with lilies, contractile roots aren't always growing straight down as you would expect. I believe that this is the mechanism that spreads out bunched up seedlings when we plant a whole pot of them in the garden. Because roots are opportunistic, they grow away from each other in search of water and nutrients. Some of these roots are contractile roots and will pull the bulbs apart as they dry in the fall.

I have a question about some 1st year seedlings that a friend gave me a few weeks ago. They are trumpet, aurelian and OT's. Most of them have senesced and are in the refrigerator now but a few have decided to grow new leaves. Do I pot them up and keep them growing under lights or do I put them in the refrigerator with the others in spite of the new leaves? The same thing happened last year with one and I put it under lights but it rotted and I don't want to lose these. I think the soil I used last year didn't drain as well as it should have and I probably over watered but I would like to know what the best course of action is.