Lorn, I'm impressed!
Should you ever be in need of a hand, apprentice, sidekick ....something!
:)

Thanks Calin--That's exactly what I keep telling Anthony down there in Tasmania. Glad you enjoy--maybe one day you'll try your hand at 'seeding'. I think there are seven or eight of us 'seeders' here on this forum. Keeps us involved with lilies year round--and we love it!

Bearsearch--You need to arrest that growth and the sooner the better. What I would do is put them right back outside, put a board over them to shut out the light and keep the rain out, hold the water and let them condition naturally for another three or four weeks. Then refigerate them. Overwintering outside is better than a fridge, especially one thats open and closed often during the day--try to keep away from vegetables and fruit also.

Lefty, Mags, you live in the North, You might want to add to this ( hint, hint ). Or maybe do something entirely different. What would you do?

Brian, last time when you held over some inside and they rotted, that had nothing to do with your decision to grow them inside; that was a result of your inside growing conditions.

If that problem is resolved, then I'd say you could do either way:
1) extract the growing ones and grow them under lights, or
2) allow all to go dormant

My personal preference is #2 because there will be transplant shock anyway if you extract them, and you will have that to contend with in addition to the change in climate (outside to inside).

Lorn's advice is right, although myself, I don't see a reason to block out light. In the end, I doubt there would be much of a discernible difference. But my preference is no light blockage, and to place them under the house roof eave, or better yet, an eave of an unheated building (or your unheated garage). Even if it does get some rain from a blowing storm, for instance, the absence of the board would allow it to dry sufficiently. The protection from the night dew that the eave provides contributes heavily to drying out, too.

My concern with blocking out light before dormancy is the stretching-for-light growth that might occur, and the use of stored reserves for that purpose and general maintenance of the leaf before dormancy sets in. (The idea to force dormancy of amaryllis by putting a green growing plant in the dark closet is bad thing, too.) The withholding of water and natural temperature drop will do a much better job. Even at 40 F, photosynthesis occurs, just far more slowly. Natural dormancy, even if it is hurried along, will actually extract certain nutrients and compounds from the leaf and into the bulb, rather than using them to keep the leaf alive without light. Even if the leaves wither green instead of yellowing first, with light is better in my opinion.

A very important thing to realize with EVERYTHING you put in the fridge:
As temperature sinks, the water holding capacity of he air (and air pockets in the soil) decreases. Relative humidity rises. Suddenly, without the addition of any water, a semi dry soil container becomes moist when cooled down the fridge. So, the idea is to judge the correct moisture for storage when at fridge temperature, not at room temperature. Always use freezer bags when storing plants in the fridge. Cheaper, thinner bags still allow air exchange, can dry out its contents, and allow unwanted gases from senescing fruit/vegetables to enter.

Bear--I wanted to mention also, that little seedlings are just like little kids--most times they just don't want to go to sleep! First year seedings will almost always stay growing a quite a bit longer than their parents and elders. Sometimes they need to be encouraged a little to put them in sleep mode. And exactly when that is becomes a judgement call that only you can make. I'll refer to the pictures of my seedlings in the greenhouse above. I put those in the greenhouse on Oct. 7th with a starting minimum nightime temp. of 55'F. letting daytime temps to reach about 75-80' F. I lowered the nightime temperature 5' F each week while daytime temps fell to 55-60. A week before those pictures were taken, I had the nightime mininum at 38-40'F. Based on what I saw last Sunday and the pictures show, I pulled the plug on the heater and opened the windows for good and in three weeks those leaves should be dry enough for me to almost blow them away. I really believe it's night time temps below 40'F within the next three weeks that will put them to sleep for good. Anticipating my timeframe, that puts me right around Dec 1st when I tip the pots and store them. That's right on target for me here.

During the time in the greenhouse it is visually evident what Rick says about the relationship of lowering the temp vs moisture relationship. Its one you can actually see at the soil surface. I see it even with each 5' drop. and is most apparent the first morning after the drop. Also, as Rick says, those in the picture and the ones you have could just as well go under a roofed over porch, etc. for the next three weeks or so for conditioning.

Many aspects of growing seedlings require some sort of judgement call--something I do all the time--things vary and there always seems to be a surprize twist or two along the way. By all means, if in doubt, ask!

At the moment my seedlings are on the 17th floor of my apartment building, under lights. We are experiencing freezing temperatures already both day and night and I won't get back to work in my garden now till spring as I'm having surgery on friday. Rick I know what you're saying about the moisture as I've had to take the bulbs I had in the fridge out and open them up to dry out more. There was a lot of condensation in the bags. I don't keep my bulbs in the fruit and vegetable compartment but I haven't been using freezer bags as I thought the bulbs had to be able to breathe. I have my seedlings under lights because this fall there were suddenly a bunch of seeds sprouting that hadn't all summer and I didn't think they would survive otherwise as it has gotten cold here very early this year. All the rest of my seedlings that have been growing all summer are not being watered so they will die back. I am keeping them cooler by putting them on the bottom shelf and leaving the balcony door open to let the cold air in.

Last year I'm sure the one that rotted did so because of poor drainage. I think I have my potting medium sorted out now. To let the seedlings my friend gave me go dormant on their own, should they be dried out under the lights? What if they decide they don't want to die back like the one last year didn't and start shrivelling from lack of water? I also had some henryi seedlings that decided to grow all winter last year (they went in the garden this fall). The seedlings have already been pulled from their pot and put in a baggie when my friend gave them to me so transplant shock is already a given. That is why I was asking if they should be potted up again.

Rereading this it seems like I'm not paying attention to what you guys are saying but I am, I just don't have the same circumstances you guys do. I'm at my apartment, it's freezing outside, these bulbs had no leaves when I put them in the fridge with the others but have sprouted in the fridge. I have the temp turned down as far as it can go in there without my food freezing. I can't plant them outside as my garden is three hours away and I won't be able to get there before my surgery and won't be able to work in the garden after it. I'm concerned about loosing them as they aren't from crosses that will be easy to repeat for various reasons. I guess I'm working my way back to option #1 and will have to make sure the mix drains well and I don't over water. I don't have years of experience with growing lilies from seed as last year was the first time I ever did it and met with both success and failure. This year I went totally crazy in the spring and planted far more than I have space to grow them.

Lorn, my name is Brian. I would really prefer people use my name as I've never liked that screen name but couldn't come up with one at the time I registered here. I must look into changing it.

Lorn, I didnt envisage my 'zip lock bags' taking on the bulging bulbs appearence -I have a lot to look foreward to

What a predicament, Brian, and not many options at all.

Sprouting IN the fridge sheds new light, too. Bulbs that didn't have leaves when you put them in the fridge and then sprouted, kinda points to sufficient moisture to do so, along with warmer temps(?) than previously esperienced. Yes, I think I would just grow them on inside, and if they want to go dormant on their own during the winter, then treat them as such, and put them in the fridge.

Bulbs that I store in the fridge often show signs of shriveling, and that's not harmful... to a point. I have taken a sorry looking specimen or two out of the fridge in mid winter and rehydrated them in a bowl of water for six hours or so, then let them dry for another 3-6 hours, then back in the fridge.

Your other option, to force dormancy by drying, is a more difficult one. I would keep them under lights. And it would mean a longer time to flowering, in addition. Even after the leaves dry, the soil must be dry, too, and a little shriveling of the bulbs wouldn't hurt either, as it would help prolong the dormancy through the needed time.
-

We do hope your surgery goes well. Our thoughts are with you,
Rick

Hi Brian: Your situation certainly is a challenging one, tho certainly not impossible. With each of your posts I learn a little more of your surounding. Given what I understand now of all this, Rick's suggestion above is the best route. And even tho you don't have all the things and versatility for growing as I do, the seedlings you grew this summer were beautiful--even looked better than mine, I thought. I think we all enjoy sharing your challenges too; with each one as they present themselves. Remember this too: Lilies are tough cookies--they can take a lot and still survive.

I'm sorry to hear of your medical problem. I certainly hope things go well and that your love and thoughts of lilies will give you many pleasant moments along the way. Your lilies will be there waiting for you and we'll be thinking of you!

Rick--to answer briefly one of your earlier posts:

No I never have grown any seeds nor run any studdies with fasciated lilies--other than the Regale you know about where I'm growing those offsets. I think that would be a good curiousity study given the time, however. If you're thinking of the one in the picture above--that's not fasciated. What happened there was last summer when that extreme 105'F heat hit so suddenly, everything was 'frozen in time' (bad pun). This one usually has good pyramidal form but all upward growth just came to an abrupt stop with that heat and hot wind.

That is half inch hardware clothe and that is the bottom you see in the picture. I'll use one fourth inch on the top. I'll explain and show pictures when I get into that later.

Concerning the little late arrivals--my goal is to try and get at least one good leaf inder lights--then I know I've at least got a bulb the size of a BB pellet and I know I'm safe. And I'll reevaluate then and decide what to do next and still try to keep schedule. The separation of the mature ones from the late arrivals appears very successful after almost three days now.and the outlook for 100% success appears likely. I think it was the onset of cooler temperatures that prompted the germination. Funny, isn't it; how a little germinating seed knows exactly when it's best for it to emerge. After all, these seeds had gone thru some very high soil temps outside last summer! Ahh--the wonders of nature!. I always knew these seeds were there and alive too. I went in and did an exploratory after the first few and no more germinated just to see. And the two seeds I examined were alive, plump and appeared to have a tiny sprout protruding. I peeled the skin/shell of one side and found a firm solid, white oval disc inside. These two were replanted and marked --and these also have now sprouted. So, I knew they were there--it was just a question of when, when, when!

Clean Cottonwood chips for next year.

Thanks guys for the concern re my surgery, it's nothing really, just an arthroscopy on my knee I messed up. I expect though that by the time my knee is ready for gardening, we will have a good blanket of snow.

I've decided to pot them up in a better medium than last year and keep them on the bottom shelf where it's cooler and hopefully by January they will have had enough and senesce on their own or with a little help from me. Rick there was lots of moisture in the baggies of seedlings from my friend and temperature changes as well because they were in the fridge, condensation was really bad and I had to pull them out again to dry out, then back into the fridge.

Rick why do you say that being under lights will mean a longer time to flowering? Does growing them on when they should have senesced affect the bulb somehow so they are developmentally delayed from the others? I had a pot of henryi seedlings I started last year and they kept sending up new leaves when I was trying to get them to die back last fall so I gave up and kept them growing all winter. This summer, without ever having lost their leaves, the henryi started putting up 6 to 8 inch stems. I planted them back in September and they were still as green as ever when the foliage was frozen. Will they be alright after being frozen off like that?

Brian said:Rick why do you say that being under lights will mean a longer time to flowering?

A poor choice of phrasing on my part. In meant that forcing dormancy would mean a long time to flowering, because you wouldn't have that extra growing time. I mentioned "under lights" because I would still have them under lights while forcing dormancy.

Brian said:I planted them back in September and they were still as green as ever when the foliage was frozen. Will they be alright after being frozen off like that?

Yes, they will be fine. Trumpets and orientpets are always the last to show dormancy signs above ground, and most often my orientpets are still green when the snow falls. And with seedling or young plants, the phenomenon is even more common. Here's a pick of some of my aurelian crosses from the past, and they all did just fine.



---

Lorn, I did think that stem was fasciated from what I though was a flattening stem just below the flowers. But had I looked closer, I would have realized that the basic structure of fasciation wasn't present.

Lorn said:Funny, isn't it; how a little germinating seed knows exactly when it's best for it to emerge.

Err...a... maybe temperature wise, but not the right season!

Rick--pictures can be deceiving, i.e. that drying stem, the more dense fiber becomes prominant while the less dense areas dry out and shrink inward, sometimes assuming an oval form in the end. Something I see occasionally, but it's a little more enhanced than reality in the photo. Not my intent to show fasciation, but rather a technique I sometimes use to mature seeds inside when conditions become unacceptable outside. Do you use this method sometimes?

All those seed pods pointing skyward, further give it that fasciated appearance, but you and I see skyward pods all the time.

I have never had the need to bring developing seed pods inside to finish. Although, many times it's come close. I think it is my "tough luck" care that contributes, but then, I don't do a lot of crossing with trumpets. This is the first year I had good looking pods on Sarabande (an orinetpet) and those seed pods opened surprisingly early, relatively speaking, this year. I thought I would need to bring L. auratum seed pods in, but in the end, pods were soft enough to leave them out. I cut the pods off a two weeks ago, and in a matter of days they began to crack. (Initially, some seeds brown and some seeds white, by the way.)

Well the cold snap has passed and the temps are back up to seasonal or slightly above so I have put the seedlings back outside to die back as they normally would. The only pots that I'll keep inside are the ones that decided to sprout in September.
The The OT's and Trumpets.

The Asiatics didn't do quite as well but have lost a number of leaves already.

Some OT's and Trumpets only had one or two seeds germinate.

Hi Brian: Nice to see you're back home. Your seedlings are unusually nice and green for this time of year and for being as far north as you are. Seems whatever mini micro climate you have around your apartment certainly allows them to grow a long time. That's good. I always say--let them grow as long as they want to, or as nature provides. The longer they grow, the bigger the bulb will get. At some point in the near future, the leaves will freeze and dry up. This will not adversely affect the bulb in any way. Just make sure your soil in not overly moist. Once the foliage is gone, you'll notice your pots will stay moist much longer, especially as temperatures continue a downward trend. You'll still have to come up with something for safe cold storage over winter tho.

Rick--Tracey--Anyone:

I have a question, too. In looking at Brian's photos above, I'd almost be tempted to grow them a few more weeks under lights. I know from working with Trumpet crosses that I can do it here with my set ups. I can grow them right up to around the first of January and still keep them in a normal cycle for outdoor growth starting in April. Just thinking.

Any thoughts?

I have to say that I often let mine get a little off track as far as regular growing season. I let those first leaves last as long as possible. It seems like whenever I plant trumpet and OT crosses, the moment I plant them in the ground, which I usually do in June or so, I immediately get new growth then, even if it seemed they were doing nothing in the pot on my deck. I always hope that I don't set the growth back by doing it this way, but I figure if they get the nutrition in part from length of time in leaf, then prolonging it seems like a good idea. When they start up again for me in June, I still see green in October and November. So it can't be all bad, I guess. It's just the way I have been accustomed to doing it. When I transplanted in fall, I would get that same growth pattern only it would be nipped by frost.

Mid to late October I will store my oriental seedlings and peonies in pots along my unheated garaged along the wall that is along the side of the house entrance. I haven't lost any bulbs this way. I cover them with a sheet and come late february check in on them. If I see sprouts coming up, then I bring them indoors under lights to start their growing cycle then.

Hopefully this helps.

It certainly could be done as Lorn says. if there is any detriment, it would be enduring the multiple changes of sleep versus wake environmental directives. But since, Lilium bulbs never truly go dormant, I wonder if that is even a concern.

An interesting thought venue. Bluegrass, for instance, is prompted for summer dormancy by the environmental directive of heat and drought. It is harmful to go back and forth (dormancy and growth) multiple times during the growing season. It depletes the plant's stamina in several ways. Does this carry over for lilies in a significant way? I don't know. Certainly for any of your lily seedlings, Brian, that are still growing or had senesced leaves but show signs of new growth, the query is irrelevant. These are still in, or have already "change" back to the growth stage. Continuing to grow them inside, given suitable conditions, will increase the bulb size and possibly shorten the maturity time (time to flowering). But I would say that whatever you decide to do will not significantly impact the health of these plants.

-

Tracey, you cover them in the garage with a sheet like a bed sheet that is breathable? Then, I would have thought that it would be too bone dry for seedlings to sprout until watering is resumed.

I'll bring them back in as there are still some new leaves showing in the OT & Trumpet pots. The Asiatics though have not been showing any new growth for a few weeks now so I'll probably let them die back and store them.

I think that's a good choice for both, Brian. They look like they would go another four or five weeks and that might be good enough for a couple extra leaves next year as a value added plus. And the Asiatics can go dormant as they please, anytime now--they'ed be the first ones to go dormant anyway.

Rick--I had a 'bone dry' pot of lilies in a garage that started to grow in late Feb. once, so they must sense the slightest upward trend in temperature and that must be what prompts growth. It was given to me and one I didn't give a darn about but it's strong will to live was enough to earn it a new home in the garden.

edit added: I overwinter seedlings in an unheated garage too, especially when it gets too late to bury the pots outside. I usually cover those with small sections of quarter inch plywood and check about once a month or so and maybe add a little water if necessary. A very reliable carefree method!