beckygardener said:"A complication with FFO dates is that for any cultivar they become earlier the more scapes are produced - the more flowers there are to open (to a limit, more or less). " Can you please explain this comment more. Are you saying that if the plant has many fans and many scapes, that it will actually bloom earlier than usual? Or am I misunderstanding what you are saying?

Its a mathematical effect. Let me make an extreme example. Say a cultivar only has one bud on each scape and in its first year in a garden only produces one scape. Lets say that flower opens on day 139 of the growing season. The next year it has two scapes and the flowers open on day 138 and day 140 of the growing season. The third year there are four scapes and the flowers open on days 137, 139, 140, and 142 of the growing season. If we work with the average flower opening date then it is 139 the first year, 139 the second year and 139.5 the third year. But if we work with FFO then it is 139 the first year, 138 the second year and 137 the third year.

FFOs look like this if we graph them



The average FFO is about day 180 but the more flowers there are, the more likely that the earliest FFO will be nearer to day 80.

Got it! Thanks for spelling it out in layman's terms for those like me who aren't as scientific. That's really interesting that the more scapes often produce earlier blooms.

The reason I even brought it up is because Dragonfly Dawn x Dragonfly Dawn seedlings are rather surprising me. All the seeds came together crossed during 2013 growing season and then I got the seeds. In 2014, I got a couple blooms on 1 of 2 seedlings sowed and grown at that time. The first bloom was July 22. I believe (if memory serves me) that it only produced 2 or 3 blooms. The other sibling (#2) has yet to bloom.

In late Spring/early Summer 2014, I sowed the last 2 seeds I had left. Transplanted them out into a new garden bed in the Fall of 2014. BOTH of them have now sent up scapes. Which surprised me because I assumed they might be mid to late bloomers like their first sibling. But they are going to be blooming within the next 2 weeks (in April). Neither of the older 2 seedlings have sent up scapes yet (they are also growing in a different garden bed). So could this earlier blooming time for the younger siblings be genetic, enviromental, or unknown? Or do young/new seedlings tend to bloom earlier than their genetic make-up would normally allow as an older seedling?

Becky, since I'm not patient enough to breed my own, I've just been buying daylilies that either repeat bloom (and in FL that's usually a couple or three times since our season is so long) or are constant bloomers. That's why I bought the Siloam Double Classic - Ann @flaflwrgrl says that it was one of the most vigorous and prolific bloomers that she had at her previous house.

I've also had for years a small red one that might have been Ming Toy. It repeated bloom at least 4 times from May through October. I've been hunting for it and I think it has finally petered out this year. The bed I had them in is right now completely invaded with oak tree roots, and until I have the energy, or can hire someone with the requisite energy, not much will grow in there unless it's in a pot sunk into the ground. Here's an older pic of that red one.

Nice to hear that about Siloam Double Classic I just recently bought it, that makes me really happy.

beckygardener said:So could this earlier blooming time for the younger siblings be genetic, enviromental, or unknown? Or do young/new seedlings tend to bloom earlier than their genetic make-up would normally allow as an older seedling?

It could be purely genetic, purely environmental, purely genotype X environment interaction or any combination of two of the factors or any combination of all three - whichever is unknown.

Young/new seedlings may bloom earlier (or later or at a different time) than their genetic make-up would normally allow. We do not have scientific objective information about how bloom times would change with the age (or more precisely the size) of a daylily. I suspect that the bloom time will change from first bloom cycle to later bloom cycles and not settle down until the plant has reached its maximum mature size and is blooming and producing new fans at a stable rate. A fan will not bloom (under normal circumstances) until it has reached adult/mature size, but that does not mean it cannot continue to grow larger and its flowering characteristics may change as it grows larger.

Many years ago I measured the size of the fans of a cultivar in my growing conditions. By size I measured the width of each fan at the soil surface. I also counted the number of leaves, measured the height of the scape and counted the buds. I found that the wider the fans, the more leaves, the taller the scape and the more buds. I measured the same characteristics on another cultivar and found the same thing. Two years ago I measured the width of the fans of a cultivar that reblooms here and I also classified the fans as to whether they bloomed once in that growing season, rebloomed or did not bloom at all. I found that the wider the fan (that is, the larger the fan) the more likely the fans were to rebloom. Flowering characteristics seem to be affected by fan size.

It is possible that larger fans bloom on average at different times than smaller fans of the same cultivar - we do not know.

Maurice - Wow! That is cool research you did on fan/leaf size vs. number of blooms and re-blooms. Now that you've mentioned it, I will be checking my fans/leaves. To me, that would make sense because the leaves help produce the energy to grow blooms. Bigger and more leaves = more blooms! Very, very good deduction!

Wish Siloam Double Classic rebloomed for me here in the north but it doesn't. It does give me a long season of bloom though and that's a plus.

Becky and Maurice, I can't thank you guys enough for the questions and answers. This is better than reading the Daylily Journal ;)

Stella de Oro blooms all year around for me out here. I know a lot of folks don't like her because she's overused in the landscaping biz, but on days when no other plant is blooming, I'm always pretty sure I can look over and see a cute little, fragrant, yellow bloom to make me smile.

Cindy, I am with you on SDC. It blooms for a long time here without rebloom.


Admmad, glad we are on the receiving end of your research and extensive knowledge.
Becky, as far as long bloomers go I have several. Most of which are dips.
Black Eyed Stella
Rosy Returns
Apricot Sparkles - rapid increase. Have to be divide more frequently
to maintain rebloom vigor.
On And On
Endless Heart
Vineland L'uva
Stella's Pink Pretty
Stella's Sparky
Stella's Ruffled Fingers
Yellow Lollipop
Look Here Mary
Nature Boy

I have some Apps rebloomers that are new here so I should have a better assessment of them later this year. Most notable :
Dynamite Returns
Centerton One - Apps/Blew
Red Hot Returns

Consistent reblooming tets :
Venus Fly Trap
Caesar's Head
Romancing Summer
Inimitable
Adamas




Centerton One


Look Here Mary

Becky, I hope/wish you could make it to daylily mecca, and visit some of the gardens around Orlando. Where you are, the heat really limits getting good results, especially from northern daylilies. Dan Hansen, ladybug daylilies, has great bargin clumps and they grow out in the middle of the hot the sun. Altho there are many great gardens in the area, he is that I know of, the hottest garden ( farthest south). If your new to daylilies, the story of his Mother...along with Liz Salters family( Munson) is very interesting. They were real trail blazers.

Kaskel was the farthest south hybridizer that I know about in Florida. He hybridized near Miami and registered 75 daylilies. The last ones he registered were in 2004-2005. He had been breeding for rust resistance.

Mike and Cindy - Siloam Double Classic is a dormant, so probably would not do well here in Florida. Such a pretty double bloom!

Mike - Those two featured in your photos are really stunning! I wonder how many of those long bloomers you listed are dormants? Quite a list you compiled. It must be great to have daylily blooms for a long time. That is one of my goals ... rust resistant, long blooming, and patterned blooms. Among other desires! LOL!

Pam - Maybe some year I will make it to the Daylily Mecca. Sounds like a wonderful event. I would love to be able to purchase some more nice registered daylilies for a bargain. What I realize is that anything registered by a breeder (long-term breeder) is that the plants seem to be superior in all ways. Which is what makes them name and registration worthy.

Maurice - That is good news to hear that Kaskel is breeding for rust resistance. I wonder why he hasn't registered anything in 10 years? Has he spent all this time just breeding for rust resistance? The reason I ask is I can not find a website for him.

Theory doesn't always hold true in every climate, Becky. I was really surprised that Siloam Double Classic was listed as a dormant. Ann @flaflwrgrl recommended it highly saying it bloomed like crazy for her down in Hobe Sound at their other house.

So far, it's done really well for me, too. I got a big fat double fan start a year ago, it bloomed twice for me last year, and is already blooming again. Also seems to be very rust resistant. It never did lose all its leaves through the winter, either. Dormant? Maybe not.

Elaine - Hmmmm .... doesn't sound like it is dormant. Usually dormants in my garden disappear at some point in the year and then re-emerge with new foliage. If it is rust resistant ... another good reason to get that cultivar! Thanks for the personal experience info from someone else who lives in Florida.

I had planned to try and avoid dormants being I had a few that did not do well, but I have had to rethink that. I read more and more about dormant daylilies doing so well in this area. Red volunteer, Alabama Jubilee, Siloam Double Classic... on and on the list goes, and they grow and multiply and return very well here. So I am not going to avoid dormants, but I will check around first and see how others have had them act in their gardens in this area.

SDC was a semi dormant for me in Hobe Sound. She sure performed her petals off I can tell you that!
Becky, take a look at my photo of her in my Hobe Sound garden -- get a load of all those buds! Note the date the photo was taken and then go down & read my comments in the comment section for the plant. She increased like rip too!


Funny, but up here I've had some dl's that went dormant over winter which are listed as semi evergreen. Just goes to show you things aren't always written in stone. There are always subtle differences to consider - microclimates being only one of them.

beckygardener said:That is good news to hear that Kaskel is breeding for rust resistance. I wonder why he hasn't registered anything in 10 years? Has he spent all this time just breeding for rust resistance? The reason I ask is I can not find a website for him.

He was hybridizing for rust resistance but he has not had a website for some years - I think he stopped hybridizing daylilies years ago, but perhaps he just does not sell them any more - I do not what changed. Some of his introductions should still be available.

Dormancy

In other plant species, when we think of "true" dormancy we typically are thinking of winter dormancy (endodormancy). The plants are dormant during the winter and must experience a certain amount of cold weather to be able to grow well (or sometimes to grow at all) in the next spring. A dormant plant is not growing; it is not producing new leaves. A dormant plant may have green leaves during winter (for example, an evergreen tree) or it may not have green leaves during winter (for example, a deciduous tree). When leaves are present during mild winters we cannot tell whether the plant is dormant or not unless we carefully watch it to see if it is growing brand new leaves.

I have tested a number of different daylily cultivars to see if they have "true" winter dormancy - to see if they are endodormant just before and during the winter. I have not found any yet that are. The test is relatively simple. Choose a time during the year when you want to test a specific daylily cultivar. If it is already in a pot put it in a warm, well lit spot. Otherwise dig it up and pot it. Then see if it grows (produces new leaves). One may have to cut-off all its leaves if it does not show new growth in a week or two. I have tried bringing daylilies inside the house in December, November and October. They have always started growing quickly. They were not endodormant when I brought them inside. Last autumn I did the same thing for Siloam Double Classic. It has been growing, very slowly, all winter inside.

I will test some this summer in July, August and September to see if they are endodormant then. Perhaps endodormancy (if it is present in any modern daylily cultivar) does not last very long.

It is perhaps important to know that whether a plant becomes dormant or not depends strongly on its environment. In natural conditions, in the 'wild', daylilies are watered by rain, are not fertilized and grow in competition with other plants. In those growing conditions a plant that can become endodormant may do so. However, in a garden where they are watered, fertilized and grown with little competition from other plants, even though a plant can become endodormant it may not do so.

All plants may be able to become ecodormant - that is, when the growing conditions are not good enough for the plant to grow it stops trying to grow. It may form a bud and rest. It can start growing again as soon as the conditions are good enough for it grow. Temperature would be the most likely candidate for causing a daylily to become ecodormant.

Maurice - I kinda got the impression Kaskel wasn't really in the business anymore. I did see that another breeder named a daylily in honor of Matthew Kaskel. http://peteharrydaylilies.com/...

About "dormancy" ...

What is it called when a daylily literally disappears from sight above ground? I thought those were the dormant daylilies. Mine completely lose all foliage and then grows new leaves come warmer weather.

beckygardener said:About "dormancy" ...

What is it called when a daylily literally disappears from sight above ground? I thought those were the dormant daylilies. Mine completely lose all foliage and then grows new leaves come warmer weather.

A daylily that loses all its leaves would more or less be deciduous. If it does not grow (new leaves) until warmer weather then it could also be ecodormant or it could be endodormant.

The usual behaviour of a plant that is endodormant during the winter is that it will go dormant in the garden in most locations. In locations where the plant does not experience enough "chilling hours" (time when the temperatures are low - cold) the plant may not sprout for a long time after the spring arrives, or it may not grow properly or grow well, if it does sprout (or when it does sprout).

The usual behaviour of a plant that is ecodormant during the winter is that it will go ecodormant in the garden in some locations but not in other locations. If it goes ecodormant because the temperature is too low for it to grow then it will not go ecodormant in locations where the temperatures stay above its minimum growing temperature. As an example, cultivar A may go ecodormant when the temperatures are lower than 45F. It might require three days in a row when the temperatures are that cold to go ecodormant. Cultivar B may go ecodormant when the temperatures are below 35F. It might require four days in a row when the temperatures are that low to go ecodormant. Cultivar C may go ecodormant when the temperatures are below 30F. It might require two days in a row with temperatures that low to go ecodormant. Cultivar D may go ecodormant when the temperatures are below 25F.

For those sorts of ecodormant dayliles, when the temperatures rise above their lower limits they will start to grow again. Cultivar A might start to grow again as soon as it experiences two days in a row with temperatures above 45F. Cultivar D might start to grow again as soon as it experiences five days in a row with temperatures above 25F.

There is catch-22 to all of this. The lower the temperature, the slower the growth. At low temperatures it may take many days for a daylily to grow enough to see any difference and it will be a very small difference. A daylily may disappear completely under the soil. The tip of its bud might be one inch below the surface of the soil (or even lower). At low temperatures the cultivar might only grow a fraction of an inch each month; it could take many weeks of growth before the tip of the fan appeared above the soil.

The question of whether some daylilies become ecodormant or endodormant could be important to daylily growers in locations with mild winters. Endodormant daylilies (if there are any) might not grow well in locations with mild winters where they do not receive enough chilling hours. However, simply because a daylily does not grow well in locations with mild winters does not necessarily mean that it is endodormant. Ecodormant daylilies should be able to grow well in locations with mild winters since they do not need to experience cold temperatures to stop being ecodormant. One should keep in mind that locations with mild winters may also have hot summers or droughts. Some daylilies may not do well at high temperatures or in droughts.