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Aug 5, 2019 2:35 PM CST
Thread OP
Zone 6
Any shade-liking plant that is for "partial sun" seems to specify "a few hours of morning sun." Ok, but what about if the sun is at the end of the afternoon? One article on a specific plant (I forget which) that has varying light requirements across cultivars and species noted NONE can do only afternoon sun.

In undisturbed wild brushlands, do plants simply not grow where they only get afternoon sun? (I may be reading way too much into the one plant I read about)

Or, for purposes of selecting plants, is afternoon sun effectively "full-sun"?


I'm new to gardening, but fairly seasoned in lawn care, so I naturally tend to think of sunglight as a key/central component of plants, but maybe for landscaping/gardening its still important but not as important as grass?


Case-in-point: I bought and planted a "Lemon Daddy" hydrangea, with instructions for 3-6 hours sunglight, and it's leaves are drooping/weeping even with daily watering.
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Aug 5, 2019 2:43 PM CST
Southern Indiana (Zone 6a)
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JuniperBushes said:Any shade-liking plant that is for "partial sun" seems to specify "a few hours of morning sun." Ok, but what about if the sun is at the end of the afternoon? One article on a specific plant (I forget which) that has varying light requirements across cultivars and species noted NONE can do only afternoon sun.

In undisturbed wild brushlands, do plants simply not grow where they only get afternoon sun? (I may be reading way too much into the one plant I read about)

Or, for purposes of selecting plants, is afternoon sun effectively "full-sun"?


I'm new to gardening, but fairly seasoned in lawn care, so I naturally tend to think of sunglight as a key/central component of plants, but maybe for landscaping/gardening its still important but not as important as grass?


Case-in-point: I bought and planted a "Lemon Daddy" hydrangea, with instructions for 3-6 hours sunglight, and it's leaves are drooping/weeping even with daily watering.


Lowe's is known for having plant tags that say "morning sun" for some partial sun plants. To me, when someone says to plant something in morning sun, it is just a warning that the plant can't tolerant a lot of sun. Where I live, we have no morning sun. I live in a glade surrounded by 60-100 foot trees on all sides of the house, so we don't get anything but afternoon sun. I still have hydrangeas, hostas, impatiens, coleus... all plants recommended for morning sun. Interestingly, direct sun from 10-12 a.m, is the most intense. The reason I believe people recommend planting in morning sun, is because the heat and dryness of the day, have not set in yet. It doesn't really have much to do with the sun itself. This will greatly vary on where you live, though. Also, you bought a macrophylla hydrangea, which is known to have issues with water consumption. As far some plants only choosing to grow in one type of sunlight over the other, I don't think it applies to most plants. The arborescens hydrangea is native here, and it is recommended 4-6 hours of morning sun, but I've seen it growing in afternoon in the wild over and over.
Maybe we should get a second opinion...
Last edited by CrazedHoosier Aug 5, 2019 2:47 PM Icon for preview
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Aug 5, 2019 3:25 PM CST
Name: Baja
Baja California (Zone 11b)
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"Full sun" is defined as more than 6 hours of direct sun a day. "Part sun" would be 4-6 hours a day; "Part shade" would be 2-4 hours a day.

Morning sun is equivalent to afternoon sun in intensity, but kinder to plants because it comes at a cooler time of day. These hours are when the sun comes more from the side than from overhead, making it less intense than midday sun. You will rarely see a recommendation for afternoon sun over morning sun. The idea behind "morning sun" is to avoid peak intensity (overhead rays) which may shock the plant. This can be accomplished using an overhang (like the eaves of your house) or placing the plant in question under the canopy of another one, so that only sideways rays hit it. An eastern exposure with an overhang gives you morning sun only. In our mild climate (summer high to date is 78°F) morning sun and afternoon sun are not particularly different, as far as the plants are concerned.

The sun rises higher in the sky during late spring and early summer than any other time of year. It's still pretty high in the sky at the start of August. During late fall and early winter it will reach a lower height in the sky (here that's about 30° from horizontal) so there are effectively no overhead rays at that time of year.

Be careful with new plants right out of the nursery because they may have been growing under shade cloth protection or in a green house, and not be able to tolerate a lot of sun right away. When in doubt give them a gradual accommodation over the course of weeks, first bright shade or filtered light for a couple of weeks, then maybe some morning sun, and so on.
Last edited by Baja_Costero Aug 5, 2019 3:31 PM Icon for preview
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Aug 5, 2019 3:26 PM CST
Name: Big Bill
Livonia Michigan (Zone 6a)
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Here is the way I look at it. Today in Michigan, my morning low was 65 degrees. After four hours of morning sun, the temperature was 78 degrees. That was 11:00 am.

This afternoon, at 3:30pm my temperature was 87 degrees. At 8:30 tonight, roughly sunset, it is forecasted to be 82 degrees.
If you look at this morning, 65+78=144 for an average of 72.
This afternoon it is much warmer 87+82=169 or an average of 84.5.
Afternoon is typically warmer then morning sun. Some people claim that the afternoon sun is stronger. It is not so much the strength of the sun as it is the warmth. 12.5 degrees in my answer.
What immediately comes to mind is that some plants grow much better cooler and to counter the heat you'll need more water!!!
Orchid lecturer, teacher and judge. Retired Wildlife Biologist. Supervisor of a nature preserve up until I retired.
Last edited by BigBill Aug 5, 2019 3:28 PM Icon for preview
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Aug 5, 2019 4:08 PM CST
Portland, Oregon (Zone 7b)
Snakes
It really depends on the plant and the location. A shade plant in California might be a full sun plant in Oregon. A full sun plant in California might be deep shade in Texas. Try it and see. If it was in shade in the nursery, sudden sun might shock it, so keep an eye on it.

Regarding the hydrangea, it might have more to do with the heat than the amount of sunlight. Has it been hot where you are? When did you plant it? In the spring? Or just now in the summer?
Avatar for JuniperBushes
Aug 5, 2019 4:31 PM CST
Thread OP
Zone 6
Thanks for all replies. To the above poster: I did plant the hydrangea last week.

One thing I thought about is that in the wild small seedlings/saplings/baby plants will be shaded.

Jeez, I have out-of-control white ash saplings that get zero sunlight.

Probably the area I have doesn't meet "shade" qualifications for garden plants.

The best plants in the garden are plants not even rated fir my zone; the sago palms and hibiscus are doing great.

Watering is time consuming and frustrating. I'm tempted to go to Lowe's tropical section and plant those, not water, and just see what stays over winter.

About Lowe's: many of their "yellow-tag" sun plants are either under the translucent greenhouse or shiver under opaque shelving.

I'm new to gardening so I've been pretty much just going by Lowe's color code, though I may be misunderstanding "shade."
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Aug 5, 2019 4:45 PM CST
Name: Big Bill
Livonia Michigan (Zone 6a)
If you need to relax, grow plants!!
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You said that you are new to gardening. How did you arrive at, "watering is time consuming and frustrating"
Does that sound like a formula that a gardener might rely on and believe much less practice?

Gardening to millions of people is our
Life's blood. It is the source of great joy! When you make a commitment to gardening, it should not be made lightly.
There is no doubt that knowledge comes with experience. We try, we modify, we learn. There are no short cuts.
Instead of putting all your faith in plastic labels at Lowe's, you instead have a brilliant source of information at your fingers. ANY gardening scenario you can think of can be found right here in all of the NGA forums. Read read read read and ask questions. No hobby in my opinion should ever be connected to time consuming and frustrating. You can describe "chores" with time consuming and frustrating. Not gardening.
Orchid lecturer, teacher and judge. Retired Wildlife Biologist. Supervisor of a nature preserve up until I retired.
Last edited by BigBill Aug 5, 2019 4:48 PM Icon for preview
Avatar for JuniperBushes
Aug 5, 2019 5:55 PM CST
Thread OP
Zone 6
BigBill said:You said that you are new to gardening. How did you arrive at, "watering is time consuming and frustrating"
Does that sound like a formula that a gardener might rely on and believe much less practice?

Gardening to millions of people is our
Life's blood. It is the source of great joy! When you make a commitment to gardening, it should not be made lightly.
There is no doubt that knowledge comes with experience. We try, we modify, we learn. There are no short cuts.
Instead of putting all your faith in plastic labels at Lowe's, you instead have a brilliant source of information at your fingers. ANY gardening scenario you can think of can be found right here in all of the NGA forums. Read read read read and ask questions. No hobby in my opinion should ever be connected to time consuming and frustrating. You can describe "chores" with time consuming and frustrating. Not gardening.


I'm confused; are you telling me how I should be spending my free time? If so, what is your motivation for meddling and characterizing my feelings about shrubs I plant?
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Aug 5, 2019 6:15 PM CST
Name: Big Bill
Livonia Michigan (Zone 6a)
If you need to relax, grow plants!!
Bee Lover Lover of wildlife (Raccoon badge) Orchids Region: Michigan Hostas Growing under artificial light
Echinacea Critters Allowed Cat Lover Butterflies Birds Region: United States of America
No no no. You can grow whatever you please.
It is just that when you plant shrubs, especially during warmer weather, they need ample watering. That is how they are able to adapt and establish themselves.
I am not meddling. You're the one who posted the thread. Everyone is trying to offer advice. But you just handle your own garden.
Orchid lecturer, teacher and judge. Retired Wildlife Biologist. Supervisor of a nature preserve up until I retired.
Avatar for luis_pr
Aug 7, 2019 2:44 AM CST
Name: Luis
Hurst, TX, U.S.A. (Zone 8a)
Azaleas Salvias Roses Plumerias Region: Northeast US Region: New Hampshire
Hydrangeas Hibiscus Region: Georgia Region: Florida Dog Lover Region: Texas
Welcome to NGA, JuniperBushes. Hydrangeas are water hungry plants that require some amount of monitoring during their first few summers. It is then when they get affected by heat stress. Heat stress covers several scenarios: temperatures have risen above 85F almost daily, the leaves get some amount of direct sunlight and the plant gets drying summer breezes.

But those three are a small part of the wilting cause. An even larger component is that the shrub is not yet established in the garden and the leaves are not used to a lot of sun. "Not established" is a fancy way of saying that the plants roots were cut to fit into the plastic pots used in the plant nursery. It will take 1-3 years until they become bigger and the plant becomes established.

Hydrangeas typically have very large leaves and, in the summer, when the leaves get stressed by one of those three scenarios that I mentioned, those leaves begin to loose moisture much faster than the roots can absorb water. As a result of this imbalance, the leaves droop or wilt. But not to worry. If the soil is kept as evenly moist as you can (no periods of moist soil, then dry soil, then moist soil, etc), the leaves recover and wake up looking normal and perky in the morning.

What I do in Tx during the summer months is thus to check them in the morning.. and water them if they are wilted. During the afternoons, I do not water them on the spot if I catch them wilting. If I see them wilting during the day and the soil feels moist, I leave them alone and let them fix themselves at night. However, should I encounter an extreme looking episode during the day, I give the plant 1 gallon of water on the spot.

Can you get wilting if you water? Yes, it is possible to see wilting on the day that you watered, even if the soil remains moist to the touch. That is because the plant has a small root system and the leaves loose moisture faster than the roots can absorb more water when heat stressed or when it is very windy. The leaves wilt and that is a nice thing as it reduces how much leaf surface area the sun will be hitting (remember that when wilted, the leaves are pointing down so it is harder for the sunlight to hit them that way). And yes, you can water multiple times a day if your soil drains well, like they do with hydrangeas in some city gardens or in places with partly sandy soil.

Can you water any time that you see wilting? Yes, you can but be careful.... there is a risk associated with that when the plant is in the ground (less risk if it is in a pot). If your soil drains well, the water may help perk them up during the day. But if the soil does not drain well (I have clay soil), there is a risk that the roots will sit in wet/soggy conditions and, after too much of that, the roots can develop root rot.

How do you tell if they "reeeeeally" need water? Use the finger method: insert a finger into the soil to a depth of 4" and see if the soil feels dry or almost dry. If the soil is dry/almost dry then give them water. Otherwise, monitor and hold the water.

You can use the finger method also in this way to help tell when to water, when to change watering amounts and minimize the chance of over watering: for 2-3 weeks, use the finger method every (early) morning. When you decide to water because the soil feels dry/almost dry, make a note in a wall calendar or electronic calendar. After 2-3 weeks, review the information in the calendar and determine, on average mind you, how often you watered. That may be something like every 2 days, 3 days, etc. Then set the sprinkler to water every 2/3/etc days. When you observe that temperatures have gone up 10-15 degrees higher/lower almost every day and stay there, consider using the finger method for another 2-3 weeks to see if you need to tweak things.

What else can you do? Keep them well mulched year around, say about 2-4" of organic mulch but do not use rocks as mulch. It takes new hydrangeas about 1-3 years to become established in the garden and grow a large set of roots. In the meantime, during the worst of the summer or in very windy days, consider putting some sort of wind block or using an umbrella or outside chair to give the plant extra shade in the afternoon or in the evening. If you use a sprinkler, you can also water the hydrangea early in the morning, near sunrise, so the leaves are not kept wet for long periods, something that promotes powdery mildew and cercospora leaf spot (fungal infections). You can also use drip irrigation or soaker hoses to water hydrangeas. I tried the soaker hoses but wild bunnies literally ate a big hole on the hose in my first night trying the soaker hoses. Sigh.... Eventually, my sprinkler broke and I switched to drip irrigation. Saves me a little money since it is so hot down here in the summer and I have to water most plants so much more than when I lived in Atlanta.

So how much should you water? Start with these suggestions and tweak (based on soil types, etc) up or down. When you see leaf out in the Spring, give it about 1 gallon. As temperatures are regularly above 85F most days and stay there, increase to summer levels of 1.5 to 2 gallons. As temperatures moderate and are regularly below 85F most times, go back down to 1 gallon. When the plant goes dormant, water once a week or once every two weeks depending on local rains. Stop watering if the soil freezes but resume when you see leaf out.

About variegated hydrangeas... yellow or white variegated hydrangeas do better with less sun than typical mopheads. I did not have space for Big Daddy (Lemon Daddy's parent) so I got Sun Goddess instead and noticed that the intense sun in the South made the leaves eventually turn from yellow to dark green. That may not be an issue where you are though. For example, in the Pacific Northwest, I have observed several yellow hydrangeas still very yellow this time of the year (but not here). To help maintain leaves yellow, you can go plant in locations where the morning sun hits for just a little bit, say, 1-2 hours without having major blooming issues. LD will produce blooms that are either pink (if your soil is alkaline) or blue (if your soil is acidic). I did not like the shade of pink of my SG against its yellow leaves and ended cutting the blooms off after a month or less. Not a big deal as I got it for the look of the yellow leaves. Ha! Drooling

About Lemon Daddy... without winter protection, it may not bloom reliably in cold zones. Many places in cold zones like 5 sell it, knowing that they will never produce blooms but also knowing that many people buy it just for the leaves. If you decide you like the bloomage, I encourage you to winter protect it when it goes dormant in the Fall and to remove the winter protection about 1-2 weeks after your average date of last frost.

About flower buds... these hydrangeas -like LD- produce flower buds in late Summer to early Fall (earlier in the South; later in the north and Canada). We often use the phraseology that these shrubs bloom on old wood only. Down here, for example, they produce the flower buds around mid to early July. Then flower buds develop at the ends of the stems and are invisible until they open in the Spring. To preserve the flower buds, try not to prune stems if you can help it. Place LD in a location where it can attain the dimensions in the plant label without touching other plants, etc. To preserve the flower buds if weather is too cold, consider winter protection. If winter temperatures and drying winds kill the stems, you get no bloomage. If the stems are not killed but it gets cold enough to kill the flower buds, you would not get bloomage either.

As the shrub becomes established (that is, the shrub develops more roots), the wilting episodes will be reduced but not eliminated. In future summers (or very windy days) I would still do a cursory check in the mornings to see if the hydrangea is wilting and did not recover on its own overnight.

Does that help you?
Luis
Last edited by luis_pr Aug 7, 2019 12:51 PM Icon for preview
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Mar 28, 2020 2:40 PM CST
Name: Alvin S
Georgia (Zone 7b)
I live in Atlanta Ga. I am planting my first garden using planting pots. They receive the morning and evening sun. I have everything from tomatoes ,peppers , beans , onions, squash , cucumbers, water melons, corn (planted in ground with collards) . How often should I water and how much water is to much . Thanks
Avatar for luis_pr
Mar 28, 2020 5:08 PM CST
Name: Luis
Hurst, TX, U.S.A. (Zone 8a)
Azaleas Salvias Roses Plumerias Region: Northeast US Region: New Hampshire
Hydrangeas Hibiscus Region: Georgia Region: Florida Dog Lover Region: Texas
Although all of them like to be watered early in the morning (around sunrise), they are all different. For example:

This is a general rule only but for tomato plants, 1-2" of water a week is ok.

For those mostly water bell peppers, I water two or three times a week, or whenever the soil is dry 1 to 2 inches beneath the surface.

For squash and onions, I try to give them 1" of water a week. Note: onions do not tend to display many (or any) issues when they are too dry so check them with some regularity using the finger method.

Water melons like moist soil so I try to give them 1-2" of water per week. Cucumbers too but, in the hot Texas Summer, I tend to go closer to 2" a week.

If you pinch soil between two fingers and get water droplets, either you are watering too much or you recently watered. Inset a finger into the soil to see if the soil feels dry, moist or wet.

Include any rain you get into these counts. The pots should have water drainage holes.
Last edited by luis_pr Mar 28, 2020 5:16 PM Icon for preview
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