Val, your Seven Sisters is gorgeous! How many weeks does it bloom for with its side buds? Beautiful!!

I'm ready for 1 Jan—or at least as ready as I can be! I went online to the ones opening then and updated my billing and shipping addresses so I can just log on and buy….planning to get less this year, though. I'm hoping to keep the entire year at less than 40 roots with the vast majority being woodies. Think I'll get 4 from Cricket Hill based on their initial inventory for next fall. Planning on just 3 or 4 from Solaris max, about the same from Adelman's and maybe a few from Hidden Springs if I can grab any rare ones. I didn't order at all from The Peony Shop this year. Solaris alone was around 23 in 2020, down to 11 in 2021. Headed in the right direction at least…I think…

Is there a way to see what Solaris will be offering before they open?

Zellycat said:Is there a way to see what Solaris will be offering before they open?

I don't think there's a way to do so.

I can't even find their catalog for previous years, for anything sold out it will be removed from their website.

Nate says the website will be available for ordering will be Jan 1st morning, but I don't know the exact time. I hope their website won't crash and the peonies I am interested in won't sell out fast like video cards.

Good point, Liz. I need to log in to make sure everything is working okay.

I wonder why Solaris removes everything? I would think that it would build more interest if anyone could see all the varieties and read up on them. I really have no idea what to look for!

Swenson's keeps saying that they are opening soon, but I haven't seen a firm date yet.

Mountain Flower Farms will open January 1. They have nice roots, and the price includes shipping in the lower 48.

Good to know I'm not missing any tricks. I agree it's a lot more fun when you can see them as "sold out".

I went on the APS website and looked at all of the most recent intros and read up on a few of them. There are certainly drawbacks in that method, the pics posted aren't the best (or the new intros for 2021 are more boring than most…) but I did learn a few things, mainly about ones I've already purchased, by reading the info presented at registration. The ones that I remember most was that Dakota Girl was named after Lynnette Sorrento, a long time APS member and generally nice person, and Sun Devil supposedly offers a longer bloom period because it typically has stems from the root as well as growth from last year's stems that put out buds at different times so extended bloom period. There are also a couple of 2021 intros that are tagged as Suffruticosas that are actually crosses with Ostii. I don't think they listed seed/pollen parents but I wonder if the seed parent was Chinese Suffruticosas (known to get more cold damage with adverse spring weather) if the mix with Ostii will make them more resilient?
The APS registry doesn't have any info on plants submitted for registration that haven't finished the process yet, or if it's there I don't know what to search to make it come up. If anyone figures that out please share how!

Brooks Gardens web store will open @ 5pm (PST) on 1 Jan 2022. So no need to burn the midnight oil.

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I've just checked the Cricket Hill catalogue for 2022. They are not offering those Chinese TPs that I bought in 2021; Necklace with Precious Pearls, Colourful Butterfly and Sapphire Blue. Hope mine will develop nicely These are all from the Central Plain group, but since I haven't had any problems with the Black Dragon Holds a Glorious Flower (which is also from this group), I hope that these new additions will also thrive in my garden

I also think that seeing offering for the new season before opening the catalog is a good thing, and I asked Nate about looking at leas at sold out peonies but it seems he is not interested in this, he probably has enough customers and maybe more purchases than they can handle. they closed the catalog in 2021 very early (in July?) because they amount of orders was already very high.

I'm only interested in adding one or two, that's what I always say every year, we'll see what happens this year.

Liz, I am not very impressed with new introductions of herbaceous peonies, many look similar to existing varieties, though I can tell only looking at photos, maybe in reality they look better.

I agree, Anya—there isn't much that looks fresh and new this year, at least from the pics on the APS website. I am interested in the 2 below but doubt I'll see them offered anywhere, just because I want to see how the Ostii impacts the behavior of the Suffruticosas. Was surprised to see that Ostii was the seed parent on these, I guess I don't understand the family naming conventions. I'd think that having a seed parent from a different family would at least have it tagged as a suffruticosa hybrid. Does anyone understand how that works and, if so, can you explain it?





Find it surprising that Feng Dan is the seed parent, isn't that another name for Phoenix White or am I getting them confused?

Liz, these 2 are nice, especially the lilac one. I doubt you will see them offered but maybe. Good luck! I also don't understand how the hybrids are assign to a group. I thought if a variety has a hybrid in parentage it should be assign as a hybrids but sometimes I see them assign to a lacti group.

I'm sure Nate will be lecturing at the APS convention this year, I'll ask him if he can add in an explanation.

Hi Anya! Yeah, since they're so new and registered by hybridizers in China I agree—not likely to see them offered in the US for a while, if at all. I'm more interested in the mix of Ostii/Chinese Suffruticosas and whether it'll make those easier to grow in the more unpredictable spring weather we have CONUS. I assumed these crosses would be easy to spot by how they were classified but if these are used as an example it appears I'd be flat wrong!
I did send a note to Nate asking about the classification but I know he's super busy right now, don't expect to hear back from him anytime soon. If I do hear from him and he has an interesting answer I'll share here!

So this is Nate's response to my query about the Ostii/suffruticosa cross designation as Suffruticosa. Anya, I mentioned your comment about hybrid vs Lacti so you'll see your name mentioned in the 2nd comment.

Liz, Internet is working for the moment! Yeah! Suffruticosas...APS doesn't act as a taxonomic entity, thus doesn't get caught up in all of the species classifications. However, some taxonomic rules are followed to place cultivars into categories. Since Suffruticosa group plants are not actually species (those found in the wild) they are a collection of plants which have a highly variable genetic background. All Suffruticosa plants are hybrids which have the following the following species in their genetic make up: P. rockii, P. decomposita, P. jishanensis, P. cathayana, P. ostii, P. rotundiloba and P. qiui; which are all taxonomically part of the Section "Moutan". Genetic marker technology has allowed scientists to identify these species in Suffruticosa cultivars, thus all Suffruticosas are hybrids. Thus Suffruticosa Group plants are part of a hybrid swarm of 1000's cultivars. Any species within the Section Moutan and/or hybrids of these species (all Suffruticosa cultivars) which are crossed within the group are considered Suffruticosa Group plants. To answer your question in short... a cross of P. ostii x Suffruticosa ends up being a Suffruticosa Group cultivar since it is a cross within the Section Moutan. It is no longer simply P. ostii because it has other Suffruticosa genes in its ancestory. Since P. ostii makes up 50% or more in this cross it may have more traits which are similar to P. ostii, but it no longer can be considered that species. We might say call these plants "P. ostii" lineage/influence cultivars, to note the similarities. The same can be said for any other species crossed with Suffruticosa Group cultivars. I've to noting cultivars which heavily favor P. rockii as Rockii lineage or influence cultivars. Very few people actually own true species P. rockii, but actually have Suffruticosa cultivars with Rockii lineage/influence. APS doesn't want to create new categories for all of the possible combinations, but does recommend that hybridizers and originators include parental information in their descriptions. Thus a description may include information about the influence/lineage and this is helpful to people looking for certain traits in Suffruticosa Group cultivars. This all gets complex and Reiner has done a great job sorting it out, but getting the peony world at large to understand the subtleties will be challenging. Your question has been asked numerous times in the last year, but I'm not sure those who receive the answer have the foundational knowledge to understand.


I'm not sure which Lactiflora Group cultivars Anya is referring to, but can supply the following... Some hybrids may end up being classified as Lactiflora Group cultivars because there is no discernible difference that would place them in the Hybrid Group. I never liked this classification since they genetically are hybrids, but look like lactifloras. Don Hollingsworth has a number of plants that are hybrids which look exactly like lactiflora cultivars; "Show Girl" is an example and is listed as a lactiflora of hybrid origin. I agree "Show Girl" looks and behaves exactly like a lactiflora, but it is still a hybrid. I guess the Lactiflora Group is heavily based on visual and behavioral characteristics, rather than genetics. I've mentioned this on a number of occasions, but there doesn't seem to be the desire to make changes as it would alter many past introductions. In essence we need to remember that the Peony Registry acts as a historical record and not a perfectly scientific reflection of the genus. The science of genetics and taxonomy are changing rapidly, thus the disconnect in the Peony Registry.

Thanks for asking Nate, Liz. I really like the clarification that the APS registry is a historical record. That makes the most sense.

Liz, thanks for asking, and Thanks to Nate for such a thorough answer! I knew that suffruticosa group is of a hybrid origin but did not know it included all possible species of this Moutan section. It makes a lot of sense regarding the new hybrids you asked about. I agree with Nate on herbaceous hybrids: if we know that a peony has a hybrid parent it is logical to consider it as a hybrid, regardless how it behaves. I don't quite understand what it means. A look of a lacti but does it matter? We don't have a lot of information about historical varieties so we can judge them based on morphology and "behavior". However, if we know the pedigree, at least part of it, we should consider it. The same is with systematic. Before people used morphological traits, now we consider more genetics for placing species in groups.

I've ordered my first one for 2022. Stephen E Ambrose from Swensons.

https://shop.swensongardens.co...